Curse

Pheenix Down · Oct 02, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Imho, yes.

Anet told us explicitly not to copy/paste wiki builds for the skillbar contest, and yet a large portion of the winners are wiki builds.

People like me who followed their rules were punished.

People who copy/pasted builds were rewarded.

Your thoughts?

MMSDome · Oct 02, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I mean honestly wtf.

Frenzy and shock on a henchmen??? I can't wait to watch them exhaust themselves to zero energy while taking double damage.

Why even bother having a contest if you are going to take bars already in the meta.

Inde · Oct 02, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

*sigh* I'll say it, because I know a lot are thinking it. This game is nearly 5 years old... what originality? And if you hold the notion that you possess an original build give me 5 minutes with google and I'll prove you wrong. If you hold a combination that is so truly original there can be found no mention of it... it's probably that way for a reason.

I know the community wanted builds that weren't a dime-a-dozen, but it's my sincere foolish hope that most people actually KNOW what works and doesn't (to a small extent) at this point in the game. So they submitted builds that they believed could work aka proven/popular/tested/known builds. With the statement of AI being tweaked it seems that these submitters hopes were justified.

So 'originality' arguments are quite "out there" in terms of this contest.

Personally, I like the fact that ArenaNet is trying to keep the player base interested (yes, argue and flame that if you want but know it won't be 'original' once again). They are doing contests, trying to at least involved the community. This contest was a no-win for them from the start. They probably realized this. No matter the build that was submitted, a good build (cries of no originality/gimmick/copy+pasted), an original build (cries of it being bad/LOL/detailed analysis on why this has never worked and will never work), or even a bad build (sum it up with LOL again) maybe the point was to keep you all talking. Let the community know that even if this was an arguably failed attempt at a contest it was still there.

We know ArenaNet is short on resources for this game (maybe not short but let's not argue community perception) and that the community really just wants involvement. So this didn't work. Well I welcome them to keep at it! I thought the concept of the contest was a cool idea. So it didn't deliver to some people's eyes, hey, coming up with ideas to keep the community involved is indeed more difficult then you'd like to believe. And no, you don't really have control or even foresight to know how they are going to be received and the end result. Everyone has a criticism to offer on any subject but rarely are they the idea makers. Let's at least try to thank them for putting it out there. I would like to see more contests that involve the community like this.

moriz · Oct 02, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

i don't see how the AI can be adjusted feasibly. all this means is extra work on top of an already overworked live team. i'd rather the live team picked builds that work properly on AI. unfortunately, that pretty much leaves only caster henchmen, since the AI for melee characters is horrible.

MMSDome · Oct 02, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

*sigh* I'll say it. Because I know a lot are thinking it. This game is nearly 5 years old... what originality? And if you hold the notion that you possess an original build give me 5 minutes with google and I'll prove you wrong. If you hold a combination that is so truly original there can be found no mention of it... it's probably that way for a reason.

I know the community wanted builds that weren't a dime-a-dozen, but it's my sincere foolish hope that most people actually KNOW what works and doesn't (to a small extent) at this point in the game. So they submitted builds that they believed could work aka proven/popular/tested/known builds. With the statement of AI being tweaked it seems that these submitters hopes were justified.

So 'originality' arguments are quite "out there" in terms of this contest.

Personally, I like the fact that ArenaNet is trying to keep the player base interested (yes, argue and flame that if you want but know it won't be 'original' once again). They are doing contests, trying to at least involved the community. This contest was a no-win for them from the start. They probably realized this. No matter the build that was submitted, a good build (cries of no originality/gimmick/copy+pasted), an original build (cries of it being bad/LOL/detailed analysis on why this has never worked and will never work), or even a bad build (sum it up with LOL again) maybe the point was to keep you all talking. Let the community know that even if this was an arguably failed attempt at a contest it was still there.

We know ArenaNet is short on resources for this game (maybe not short but let's not argue community perception) and that the community really just wants involvement. So this didn't work. Well I welcome them to keep at it! I thought the concept of the contest was a cool idea. So it didn't deliver to some people's eyes, hey, coming up with ideas to keep the community involved is indeed more difficult then you'd like to believe. And no, you don't really have control or even foresight to know how they are going to be received and the end result. Everyone has a criticism to offer on any subject but rarely are they the idea makers. Let's at least try to thank them for putting it out there. I would like to see more contests that involve the community like this.

Why involve the community when they are using bars that they could have gotten from obs mode?

Inde · Oct 02, 2009, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Why involve the community when they are using bars that they could have gotten from obs mode?

............

Pheenix Down · Oct 02, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

*sigh* I'll say it, because I know a lot are thinking it. This game is nearly 5 years old... what originality? And if you hold the notion that you possess an original build give me 5 minutes with google and I'll prove you wrong. If you hold a combination that is so truly original there can be found no mention of it... it's probably that way for a reason.

I know the community wanted builds that weren't a dime-a-dozen, but it's my sincere foolish hope that most people actually KNOW what works and doesn't (to a small extent) at this point in the game. So they submitted builds that they believed could work aka proven/popular/tested/known builds. With the statement of AI being tweaked it seems that these submitters hopes were justified.

So 'originality' arguments are quite "out there" in terms of this contest.

Personally, I like the fact that ArenaNet is trying to keep the player base interested (yes, argue and flame that if you want but know it won't be 'original' once again). They are doing contests, trying to at least involved the community. This contest was a no-win for them from the start. They probably realized this. No matter the build that was submitted, a good build (cries of no originality/gimmick/copy+pasted), an original build (cries of it being bad/LOL/detailed analysis on why this has never worked and will never work), or even a bad build (sum it up with LOL again) maybe the point was to keep you all talking. Let the community know that even if this was an arguably failed attempt at a contest it was still there.

We know ArenaNet is short on resources for this game (maybe not short but let's not argue community perception) and that the community really just wants involvement. So this didn't work. Well I welcome them to keep at it! I thought the concept of the contest was a cool idea. So it didn't deliver to some people's eyes, hey, coming up with ideas to keep the community involved is indeed more difficult then you'd like to believe. And no, you don't really have control or even foresight to know how they are going to be received and the end result. Everyone has a criticism to offer on any subject but rarely are they the idea makers. Let's at least try to thank them for putting it out there. I would like to see more contests that involve the community like this.

I understand where you're coming from and I do appreciate that Anet is in a tough spot regarding (bad) original builds vs. (good) wiki builds.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that the rules were not to use wiki builds.

Inde · Oct 02, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

And my argument continues to be, how can you not? This game is nearly 5 years old. The good, the bad, the ugly are all on the wiki.

Lex · Oct 02, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

We know ArenaNet is short on resources for this game

So why they are adding themselves some work to tweek (to me untweekable in short period of time) AI???

It seems they have a lot free of time!

Martin Firestorm · Oct 02, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

And my argument continues to be, how can you not? This game is nearly 5 years old. The good, the bad, the ugly are all on the wiki.

Nailed.

I don't see how anyone can argue with that, or any other points made by Inde on this topic.

Kashrlyyk · Oct 02, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

And my argument continues to be, how can you not? This game is nearly 5 years old. The good, the bad, the ugly are all on the wiki.

Then they should have made a different contest. One that doesn`t let you win by effectively stealing another persons idea, while at the same time breaking the rules of the contest.

Another possibility is to remove the rule before you start the contest, but then the reward of basically immortalizing yourself in the game is just not justified.

"Copy and Pasters" are now going to be immortalized inside the game. ANet you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing suck at doing contests.

Martin Alvito · Oct 02, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Inde, what he's getting at is prioritization.

Lots of ANet employees invested a good chunk of time in this contest. They met to discuss the idea, met to discuss when and how to implement, met to delegate tasks. Someone had to program the NPC and the submission tool. Someone had to set up the database to accept and track the submissions.

Once submissions were completed, someone had to go through the submissions and toss out the obviously unacceptable ones. Then someone had to narrow down the remaining submissions to a manageable level for the judges to pick from. Then the judges had to meet to pick the winners.

All of this takes up a lot of time for a lot of people. You could have gotten the same functional outcome for 75% of the bars if an ANet employee had logged onto PvX and selected from the bars listed under "great" for GvG and HA. This would have taken one employee a couple of hours.

The other 25% of the bars are just plain bad.

People are complaining because they don't want more contests. They want persistent balance issues addressed. They want to see a GvG tiebreaker that works and is fun. They want to see SF gone.

Instead, ANet chooses to devote scarce time to a contest like this. This would be fine if that time investment had produced a more viable product - bars that are suboptimal on humans but that the AI can successfully run. Given the outputs, the contest looks like a colossal waste of time for all but the forty direct beneficiaries of the contest.

In short, people are upset because ANet does not appear to understand what the community wants. They are also upset because ANet does not appear to understand its own game and the limitations of its own AI. If the AI will be updated to use these new bars, that's great but also takes away time from fixing glaring balance issues.

EDIT: A final point. If people are shrill about complaining, this is because ANet has repeatedly demonstrated that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. This monster of a griping community has been created by ANet repeatedly rewarding those who yell loudest and longest.

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 02, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex

So why they are adding themselves some work to tweek (to me untweekable in short period of time) AI???

It seems they have a lot free of time!

I have to agree, AI isn't easy.

I create games as a hobby and it's all about events.
If this happens, do this etc.

I use a program that is just like the above text. Coding is an entirely different story and a few mess ups can cause huge problems.

The idea for the contest was great, the results weren't.
They are going to have more problems by picking meta builds than original ones.

Lex · Oct 02, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

And my argument continues to be, how can you not? This game is nearly 5 years old. The good, the bad, the ugly are all on the wiki.

Yes, the game is 5 years old, but heroes? They did come with Nightfall. Also most of build on wiki are for peoples, not for henches.

Also, why giving human bars to AI? We all know AI is faulty. I think a lot of peoples were trying to build some bars for henches to use with minimal effort from ANet side (also because ANet is short on resources). These ppl knew bad/good sides of AI, and were trying to find out good results. Also I think many of them were testing these builds.

Why awarding ppl who spent like 1-2 minutes using copy/paste over ppl who spent sometimes a few days tweaking his hench build? I dont get it, for real.

IronSheik · Oct 02, 2009, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I'm not mad that it was necessarily from the wiki, but a majority of the builds are the wiki meta. You know, the ones that say 'This build is in the current PvE/PvP Meta' Those are the ones that won. And are the ones Anet said not to use.

Oh and regina, please don't "Fix" the AI to use these bars.

Henchies can't cancel stance, and no one is going to use these miserable bars, Just keep heroes FFS.

Another Edit: if you're going to fix the AI just because of this bar that's pathetic.

Heroes have been using these skills wrong since day 1, only fixing ones on these bars just shows incompetence. No hero can use Wastrel's Right, especially a spike assassin. No hero uses death charge for a surprise spike, they use it for healing.

No hero can know when to cast make haste or song of concentration, no hero knows when to frenzy, or flail, or whether to use magehunter's or hammer bash first. They see hammer bash is full, mage isn't they use bash, mage never gets around.

What are you going to do? Make them cast make haste on something moving? Like you know, the frontline so it ends after 2 seconds.

ceolstan · Oct 02, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

I've always been a huge supporter of ArenaNet, but the winning bars left me very disappointed. I've also been much more of a PvX player, and recently playing PvP has been the most interesting part of the game that I've spent literally thousands of hours playing since E34E. I know that Linsey enjoys PvP, so I know that she knows skills and AI. The only thing I can think of is that the H1N1 and a deadline resulted in what we see here.

I agree with Inde that it's laudable that ArenaNet puts so much effort into a 5-year-old game. They're trying to keep the community engaged, hoping to keep a solid base for when GW2 comes out. Contests are useful here.

However, the issue with Heroes in PvP is that there are some skills that Heroes can use more effectively than humans. Hero interrupts are always faster. They don't have to contend with server lag. I can certainly sympathize with those who want to eliminate any NPC from PvP venues, since in some cases, bots are just better--unless your team is very good. Good teams rarely have to worry about Heroes. Average teams--and there are more of these than good ones--do need to be concerned.

On the other hand, in a 5-year-old game with a diminishing PvP player base, it's just plain old hard to get 8 people to play PvP at the same time. Yes, HA has a Party Search function. If you need the 8 players, you can get them. GvG is a different matter, though, if you're not in a top guild. Say you have 16 players you know like to play GvG. Only 6 of them are online. Your friends list shows offline.

The bars on these Henchmen roll back GvG to the days when it was 8 people or pull in one of the standard henchies. The result was sitting around the guild hall, trying to get people from friends list, gwp, gwpickup, or other irc channel to guest. Two hours later, you're still sitting around the guild hall. It's either grab a fail henchie and lose or not play. Not playing isn't fun, but losing because your henchie has a bad bar and no sense of how to play it is worse.

It's not a case of tweaking the AI. Heroes don't infuse well. They don't know how to cancel stances so that they don't kill themselves with Frenzy. They don't know how to apply the majority of enchantments.

Congrats to the people who won the contest. I bear no ill will toward any of you.

With respect to the actual henchmen bars, I can only hope that the concept of some of the bars remain the same (i.e. that there's an axe warrior, a hammer warrior, etc.), but the bars are reworked to skills that the AI has a hope of using within a PvP context.

Pheenix Down · Oct 02, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

And my argument continues to be, how can you not? This game is nearly 5 years old. The good, the bad, the ugly are all on the wiki.

Make wiki builds allowable.

Would there have been whining about allowing wiki builds? Of course.
Would Anet still be in a tough position by allowing wiki builds? Absolutely.

But you know what? At least they wouldn't have told us one thing and do the exact opposite. As a company, I would much rather hear whining about the virtues and vices of original vs. wiki builds rather than whining about why my company lied to its customers.

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 02, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by rex

My guildmate just told me: lets google out some halloween graphics and send it to halloween contest! It would be the same "original" thing as on this henchman contest.

I claim this one.

I agree with Iron Shiek

Quote:

the problem isn't they are from wiki, but wiki meta.

Makes me wonder why we have a suggestion section...

HawkofStorms · Oct 02, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Inde, what he's getting at is prioritization.

Lots of ANet employees invested a good chunk of time in this contest. They met to discuss the idea, met to discuss when and how to implement, met to delegate tasks. Someone had to program the NPC and the submission tool. Someone had to set up the database to accept and track the submissions.

Once submissions were completed, someone had to go through the submissions and toss out the obviously unacceptable ones. Then someone had to narrow down the remaining submissions to a manageable level for the judges to pick from. Then the judges had to meet to pick the winners.

All of this takes up a lot of time for a lot of people. You could have gotten the same functional outcome for 75% of the bars if an ANet employee had logged onto PvX and selected from the bars listed under "great" for GvG and HA. This would have taken one employee a couple of hours.

The other 25% of the bars are just plain bad.

People are complaining because they don't want more contests. They want persistent balance issues addressed. They want to see a GvG tiebreaker that works and is fun. They want to see SF gone.

Instead, ANet chooses to devote scarce time to a contest like this. This would be fine if that time investment had produced a more viable product - bars that are suboptimal on humans but that the AI can successfully run. Given the outputs, the contest looks like a colossal waste of time for all but the forty direct beneficiaries of the contest.

In short, people are upset because ANet does not appear to understand what the community wants. They are also upset because ANet does not appear to understand its own game and the limitations of its own AI. If the AI will be updated to use these new bars, that's great but also takes away time from fixing glaring balance issues.

EDIT: A final point. If people are shrill about complaining, this is because ANet has repeatedly demonstrated that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. This monster of a griping community has been created by ANet repeatedly rewarding those who yell loudest and longest.

Exactly. They could have not involved the community, done it themselves, and then involved the community in something else using all the manhours they saved.

The whole "they were in a bad spot no matter what they did" argument is flawed since they are the ones who put themselves in that situation in the first place.

If they wanted to involve the community Inde, they could have done so in better ways.

I wasn't that mad at this when I first saw it. But Regina's completely oblivious post that ignores the concerns of people is just infuriating. I agree though with Inde that "creative" builds should not be submitted. You want stuff that will actually help your team. But the lawyer in me really doesn't like violations of IP law.

Edit: As for that winning Halloween contest analogy, one of the winning submissions from 1 or 2 years ago WAS plagiarized. But guru called them out on it and Galie responded that they revoked the award. Stealing an image is a lot more blatant then stealing a build.

lutz · Oct 02, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

And my argument continues to be, how can you not? This game is nearly 5 years old. The good, the bad, the ugly are all on the wiki.

That Cripshot bar is uniquely...

horrible.